In this episode of “The Future Of,” we speak with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford about the current state of mental health post-pandemic and the critical role of community in healing. She emphasizes the need for increased access to resources and the potential of group therapy in addressing the mental health crisis.

Episode Transcript:

Jeff Dance: In this episode of The Future Of, we’re joined by Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed psychologist, speaker, founder and CEO of Therapy for Black Girls, and the host of its wildly popular podcast, Focus on Mental Health. She is also the author of the book, Sisterhood Heals, The Transformative Power of Healing Community. Her work obviously focuses on making mental health relevant and accessible. And today, we’re excited to talk to her about the future of mental health. Thanks for being here with us, Joy.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Thanks so much for having me, Jeff. It’s a pleasure.

Jeff Dance: Awesome. For those who don’t know you, it’d be great to get some quick insight into your experience and your journey in mental health. How did you come to be passionate about this topic? Tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: So my journey in psychology really started in high school. I had the opportunity to take what then was a satellite class. So they would roll this big TV in, and like myself and three other students would sit in front of the TV and watch this, I think it was prerecorded at the time, lecture about psychology, and then take a test. And I fell in love with it ever since. I didn’t know that there was a name for the thing that I was really interested in, which was human behavior. And so I really have not looked back since then. I was a psychology major when I went to undergrad at Xavier University of Louisiana. And at the time, I actually thought I wanted to be a psychology professor, but I had the opportunity to shadow a professor, and I realized that wasn’t the right path for me. So once I had an opportunity to shadow a therapist, it felt much more in line with what I felt called to do.

So my background professionally really is in college student mental health. I’ve worked at several different colleges doing counseling with the students on campus. On every campus I was on, I would always run a group for the Black women students. And there’s still a lot of stigma related to mental health, especially in communities of color. So it felt really important to create a space where the students could come and meet somebody who was from the counseling center and talk about what was going on with them. And I really see Therapy for Black Girls as an extension of that work. It kind of feels like outreach, like I’m talking with people on the podcast and through our different offerings as a way to bring mental health information to people and make it more relevant and accessible.

Jeff Dance: Thank you. That’s so lovely. Your work is so meaningful, and it’s been fun to work together. We really appreciate your leadership and all the good that you’re doing and how you’re mixing that in with your profession, your leadership, and this great organization. It’s really amazing. It’s fun that your name also has this aspect tied to your work. Dr. Joy is such a fun name.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Thank you.

Jeff Dance: I’ve been studying the difference between joy and happiness. There’s a notion that happiness can often be short term, but joy can be more long term, and it can have highs and lows. You know, even in hard times, you could still have joy. So it’s unique that you’re a leader in this space with that fun and beautiful name. Thank you.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yes. Thank you.

Jeff Dance: Let’s start with some statistics and just talk about the current state. The crisis that we’re becoming more aware of, especially coming out of the pandemic. The state of mental health in America 2024 says that 23% of adults experienced mental illness in the past year. That’s 60 million Americans, and that one in four adults have frequent mental distress but couldn’t see a doctor due to cost. Another report said that 90% of the public think we are in a mental health crisis in the United States, with half of young adults reporting that they have felt either anxious or had undue stress in the past year. That was from a Kaiser Family Foundation study in 2022.

But there’s this element of care where a third of respondents could not get the mental health care services they needed. Even with that shortage of care, there have been reports of even strikes by mental health care professionals, given that they’ve been so overloaded. And one survey found that 60% of psychologists reported no openings for new patients. So we have a rise in the issue, but also a shortage of resources. Tell us more about other things you’re seeing or other statistics that come to mind as we grapple with what we’re dealing with today.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah, I think that those statistics are particularly poignant and realistic and in line with what I’ve been seeing, and in talking with colleagues, what they’ve been seeing. I do think it’s important to think about where we are in time in terms of coming out of the pandemic and how that was such an igniter of mental health concerns for lots of people. Very early in the pandemic, there was a stat that talked about the first month of the pandemic, the word anxiety had been searched 16 million times. Mental health was always something a lot of people were struggling with, but at this point, we are really seeing what I believe is a crisis level in terms of mental health. I think that there is a lot of unresolved grief for people as it relates to the pandemic, not only the loss of life that many of us experienced in terms of our families and communities, but also the loss of a sense of normalcy, a loss of a sense of control, a loss of trust in structures that we thought would be in place to protect us and help us navigate a world tragedy that we’ve experienced. So I think there’s a lot of grief that people are not able to name as grief, which has led to all of these other mental health concerns. And I think a lot of people did lose loved ones, and so what does it mean to pick up the pieces after there has been a major loss in your family or in your community? I think a lot of people are still really struggling with that and struggling with, okay, if this happened a couple of years ago, could it happen again? How well prepared am I? How prepared am I with my family? I also think because of the nature of the pandemic, so many of us are struggling socially, right? Like so much of the pandemic was about lockdown, and we have to stay apart from one another. Now, what does it mean for us to be close anymore? It’s a little weird and awkward, I think, as we are continuing to try to navigate what this post-pandemic life looks like. I do think that we are at a mental health crisis. As you mentioned, resources were already pretty limited even before. Now when there is more of a need, there just aren’t the same number of clinicians to be able to take people on. Unfortunately, we have lost lots and lots of community resources, community psychiatric hospitals being closed, community mental health programs being closed. It does feel like there is a huge need without the number of providers and clinicians to actually be able to support all of the people who actually need the assistance.

Jeff Dance: Thank you. So the pandemic, we’re still struggling with issues from the pandemic, essentially, and that sort of constant whiplash. It does seem like since the pandemic, there have been other significant events that have been happening that we’re aware of. It’s almost like a reminder of that sort of whiplash, like we think we’re going to get through, but no, and then we’re dealing with that again and again and again. I feel like it affected us all, whether we like to say it or not, right?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Absolutely.

Jeff Dance: What other things do you think have compounded and kind of contributed to the number of issues we’re seeing today and the stats that we’re reading about?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I think we cannot forget the political climate that we are all living in. There has been this heightened sense of politics and animosity in the political system that has existed, I think, probably for a long time, but definitely feels like it has been at an all-time high within probably the last 10 years or so. I think that this has led to a lot of stress and strain for people. There are multiple genocides happening all across the world. I know bad stuff was always happening, but I think because of technology, and I know we’re going to get into this, and because of the access that we have to what’s happening in so many different parts of the world, we are just much more aware of all of the suffering and the awful things that are happening in the world. A lot of the conversation in the field is about how our psyches have not actually caught up to where we are in terms of technology. We are not actually built to be able to withstand and bear witness to the level of suffering that we’re seeing. I think all of these things just naturally add up to the cumulative stress that many people are currently experiencing.

Jeff Dance: Yeah. I heard that anxiety is actually unfocused fear. That was the latest definition that kind of struck me. Like it’s unfocused fear. It’s sort of hanging there. It isn’t yet focused yet. Historically, fear has been more episodic if we look back thousands of years and how humans have evolved. We react to fear with certain mechanisms to help us, but now we’re living with just the constant drip of things we hear about, read about, and see, which impacts living with fear constantly and leads to anxiety. I think that’s really fascinating. I’d love to hear your thoughts on how people are dealing with that today. You’re in this field of helping people, from a broader perspective, given the lack of resources that are present and with this unique community as well. What are some aspects of care, or the types of things that people are using to get into a better state?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Jeff, I just want to highlight the point you mentioned in terms of this kind of constant state of anxiety. I have a colleague, Dr. Alicia Little, who gives an example of how anxiety is pretty functional in our lives, and why we are now at a state where a lot of us are not functioning. The idea is that anxiety develops to help you. It has a purpose. For example, in the past, if there was a bear in the wild, you need anxiety to help you get out of danger. You want to be able to run away, hide, or mobilize yourself, and anxiety is the part of the system that helps you to get out of the way of danger. But now, we are at a state where we’re almost always running from a bear. There is no moment where the bear passes. You cannot hide. It feels like you’re in a constant state of trying to get away from a bear, and the system is not meant to be that way. It is supposed to be episodic; the stressor passes, and then you can kind of go back to a resting state. It does not feel like we are ever at a resting state right now. One of the things I highly suggest for people is to pay attention to their level of engagement with social media and general media. Because, again, kind of continuing to see tragic news stories over and over again can lead to what is called vicarious trauma. It almost feels as if we are at the scene of some tragic incident happening, even if we are thousands of miles away. It is really important to moderate and set limits on how much media you are engaging with. I also think it’s really important for people to talk with others about how they’re feeling. A lot of us carry shame or a sense of loneliness, thinking we’re the only ones struggling with a particular thing. When we’re able to say it out loud to a friend, a therapist, or someone else who cares about us, we realize that we’re not the only ones feeling a certain way, even if the circumstances are a little different. Being able to get support and talking with other people about how you’re feeling also helps to manage anxiety.

There’s also an exercise I typically suggest for people: to keep your receipts. Anxiety creates all these stories and narratives in our head that are often like the worst-case scenario. So, if you check your receipts about whatever thing you’re worrying about, do you actually have any evidence to support the worry that you are currently having? So, let’s say you’re used to talking to your best friend all the time, but for some reason, you call them one day, and they don’t call you back. A lot of us with anxiety will ultimately assume they’re mad at us, or we did something awful. But if we look at our receipts, do you actually have any evidence to support that your friend is mad at you? Could it be that they lost their phone charger, they overslept, or fell asleep and thought they’d text you back? There could be lots of reasons why you haven’t heard from someone, but anxiety forces you into that worst-case scenario. I think being able to write down what evidence you have to support the worry can be a really good way to realize there is no real foundation. The anxiety is actually irrational. There is no real concern for you to be worried about.

Jeff Dance: That’s great. I think there’s some great tips in there and a reminder for all of us who get sucked into some of the news cycles, which is so natural. It’s on our phones, it’s on our TVs, and we know it’s what sells. But that doom scrolling through bad news on social platforms and news platforms is something we think is just common news. We’re absorbing maybe 20 of those things a day, and it’s hanging in there.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Exactly.

Jeff Dance: Yeah, what if we get rolled into nuclear warfare? We see our local news and maybe our county news, then our national news, and then the world news. It’s all there, right? I actually did an experiment where I said, “Okay, I’m going to buy a magazine that gives me the news every couple of weeks. I’m going to try not to look at my phone.” I felt remarkably better. But then, I still got sucked back in. I got to remember. I had to create some commitments. It was hard, actually. It was hard not to look at my phone and see some of that news. I noticed it in my head for sure. So that’s really interesting. What about, do you believe, we’ve seen a lot of books come out around modern-day parenting and kind of helicopter parenting. Do you believe that how we’re parenting today is also contributing to the mental health issues that are arising?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Absolutely. There’s been a lot of discussion about the Surgeon General’s attention to mental health concerns, talking about the epidemic of loneliness and naming that as a public health concern. More recently, he has talked about this parental stress that is actually leading to mental health concerns for parents. I just had lunch with a friend, and we were talking about parenting and how it feels like the way we are parenting is very different from the way our parents parented. A lot of it is related to technology and the fact that children have access to all these things that we just didn’t have access to. Now, it feels like some decisions you might make are really out of your control because if your child is the only one in their grade without a phone, they are still very influenced by all their friends with access to these things. A lot of us are trying to undo some of the things we felt were not fair or good about our own parenting. In some ways, we’re over-correcting, and we hear from teachers, coaches, and adults in our children’s lives that children really are struggling with distress tolerance. Distress tolerance is a skill we want children and adults to have. But when we jump in and try to save our kids or don’t let them work out a conflict among themselves, we’re not allowing them to develop that skill, which is really helpful for them. The idea, again, is that a little bit of distress is good for us to tolerate. We need to be uncomfortable sometimes to realize, hey, it feels uncomfortable, but it’s not going to kill you. I can manage this uncomfortable feeling. But when we get in the way of allowing our children to feel that, they don’t develop that skill, which then adds to our stress. I also think that kids are very overcommitted, which means we as parents are overcommitted. So, it’s no longer just about playing in the neighborhood baseball league. Now, we’re traveling two hours away for baseball, and there are practices multiple times a week. When you already have a very full workweek schedule for the adults in your life, adding your kids’ extracurricular activities and feeling as though you’re not giving the same opportunities if you don’t allow them to participate in these things adds to the stress and strain. There are so many societal expectations of what we need to do to set our kids up for success, which is leading to stress and strain for us as parents. I absolutely believe there are some mental health concerns related to the way we are parenting these days.

Jeff Dance: That all makes sense. I appreciate how you distilled that and articulated it. I’m reflecting on how I parent my four kids while you’re talking, so thank you. Basically, you’re saying it’s okay to have some anxiety and fear and to go through hard things. With kids, we’re sometimes protecting that, not letting them discover their skill sets. Is that kind of a synopsis?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yes, exactly.

Jeff Dance: Thank you. I’m remembering the stress curve, where it’s like you have boredom on one side and then extreme stress on the other side, where it’s unproductive. But the middle is the positive pressure, right? Where they say on the stress curve, it’s good. Stress means it’s okay to have hard things and to suffer. That might be where we have peak performance. But there’s a side where it becomes a mental health issue, where there’s a crisis or the boredom side. That kind of came to mind when you’re talking about that. Is there a correlation between the stress curve that you use in your counseling?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. We want to be functioning in the middle. Some anxiety and stress is what makes you get up off the couch when you know you have an assignment to do. You need a little bit of anxiety there. But when you get too extreme on either end, that’s when we see maybe a mental health issue or crisis come up. A good way to think about if you might need additional support is when you see anxiety, depression, or other things interfering with your daily activities. Is it difficult now for you to go to work or to school? Are you not enjoying things you used to enjoy? When you see that this is now crossing the line into making it hard to function, that’s an indication where we are at maybe a clinical level.

Jeff Dance: Yeah, I think it’s hard to know because we all have anxiety or fear or go through some hard times. It’s hard to know where that line is. But I think the way you articulated it is really good. It ties into how I’m struggling to function in my everyday life; that’s great, that’s helpful. Great. Tell us more about medication. Medication is important for those in a mental health crisis. You get injured, you get some medication to help you. There are physical injuries, and you can also have mental injuries. A lot of the issues I’ve seen personally are people saying, no, I don’t need any help, but they’ve been deeply injured mentally. They don’t realize medication can actually help you unlock and maybe not be dependent on that forever, just like getting out of that current state. What about exercise? How does exercise also help with mental health? We know that medication has a role, and that’s super important, but tell us more about your perspectives on how exercise can help as well.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I appreciate you framing it that way, Jeff, because I do think that there is still a lot of stigma. There are layers to the stigma related to mental health. More and more people are becoming comfortable with therapy and talking with someone. But medication is that next layer, right? I talked to somebody, but now you’re really asking me to do something different. Now I got to take a pill. I just want people to know that it is, I appreciate the way you talked about it, as a comparison to physical injuries. If there’s something wrong with you physically, typically more of us are okay with medication. But for some reason, this idea that I need to take medication to manage a mental health concern still feels stigmatizing and like a weakness, I think, for a lot of people. I want people to know it’s okay, that if it is an aid that will help you to manage your life, manage your emotions, manage your experiences better, it’s okay to take medication. But you’re right, there are a lot of other things that also could be helpful, and exercise is one of those things. There’s all this research that talks about endorphins and neurotransmitters that are released in our brains and bodies, which can help to improve mood.

Exercise and physical activity don’t have to be very strenuous. I think people hear exercise and they think immediately like CrossFit, like I have to run two miles. You can really just walk around your neighborhood for 10 to 15 minutes and still get the boost in mood that you would get from running a mile. It’s really just about moving your body and getting those endorphins going to improve your mood. The same goes for sunlight and connecting with nature. Again, those endorphins and neurotransmitters are connected to being able to get sunlight, and we see a boost in our mood related to being outside in nature.

Jeff Dance: I personally notice if I can do 10 minutes of exercise when I’m feeling really stressed, I feel like I can bounce back. But I’ve also seen close family members really benefit from medication. Finally taking it, they’re like, “Wow, so many issues got resolved, and they’re their best selves.” It seems like there’s more progress with this area, even though personally there’s still reluctance for a lot of people, but progress like no, this can be a good thing. There’s not as much stigma around needing to take something to help you. That’s awesome.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yeah, and you know, Jeff, I also think some of that is because there has been a gross misunderstanding of mental health as it relates to physical health. Most of us are comfortable, like, yes, I’m not a doctor, so I need to go to someone to help me figure this out. But for some reason, people think they can just think their way out of a bad mood or think their way out of depression or anxiety, which isn’t the case. Sometimes it requires a higher level of intervention, which sometimes can be medication.

Jeff Dance: That’s great. Community is also a big part of your mission. From your organization, Therapy for Black Girls, to the podcast, your recent book, tell us more about how community and relationships help with mental issues.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Going back to some of your early comments, when you talked about the Surgeon General addressing loneliness as an epidemic, we really are not meant to do life alone. It is much more rewarding and fulfilling to do life with other people. Again, it is something about knowing there are people you can rely on, people who can be accountable to you, and knowing you are not alone with any particular struggle or experience you’re feeling. That only happens when we are in community with other people. Being able to ask for help, being able to offer help to others, checking on your neighbors, and neighbors checking on you—all of those things are important. I think another thing that happened with the pandemic is that some of those micro-interactions we were having with people, like the barista who makes your coffee or the bus driver you would see all the time, got disrupted. You don’t often think about those things as meaningful until they are not there. You need all those levels of interactions; the micro-interactions with people you only see in passing and the much deeper connections with maybe your coworkers and those in your support system are all important.

Jeff Dance: That makes a lot of sense. Humans are inherently social creatures by design, and we need those connection points. I can see how that had a massive impact when that was taken away. Tell us more about the types of things you’re doing within your organization to promote community and to help people, especially given the crisis of not having care or not being able to access it.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: We have a membership community called the Sister Circle where people gather and have conversations about different things but also have fun together. We do virtual comedy nights, watch YouTube videos, and kind of just laugh together. Virtual movie nights, and lots of different opportunities to connect both virtually and in person when possible because I think that is important. I really believe groups are the future of mental health in a lot of ways. We’ve already talked about the shortage of individual clinicians, and I think one of the things that will be crucial as we move forward is looking at more ways for groups to come together. These can be groups led by therapists and clinicians, but also peer support groups are important, so there doesn’t always have to be a licensed, trained professional for you to get support from others.

Jeff Dance: Thank you. That’s great. It reminds me that maybe there are people or groups within my network that could help those I love who are experiencing something. Just that reminder of community and social interaction and how we can help each other is really great.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Yes.

Jeff Dance: What other organizations, movements, or individual leaders are making a big positive impact on mental health? It’s such a big deal right now. Can you think of other organizations you collaborate with or look up to as well?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: There’s an organization called the BEAM Collective in LA, which does a lot of work with Black communities. They have a lot of classes and workshops that look at masculinity and how we can unpack the idea of masculinity and help to expand what masculinity is, which helps men to connect to mental health resources. This has been a barrier when we talk about stigma and the idea that you’ve got to be strong, which can be a barrier for men to receive help. I really appreciate BEAM’s work. There’s also the Loveland Foundation, an organization created by Rachel Cargill, who turned her birthday present into an opportunity to raise money for therapy. At this point, she’s raised millions for women of color to receive therapy services. They give out vouchers for therapy. We’ve discussed how money is a barrier for many people. Anytime it can be easier for people to get support to go to therapy, it’s great. Loveland Foundation does something incredible.

Jeff Dance: This transitions us nicely. It’s great to dive into the current state and hear your leadership around where we’re at. As we think about the future, what do you think is going to change 10 to 20 years from now? Any broad themes or thoughts about how this industry and services will evolve?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Jeff, I have to be honest. I’m a little concerned about the advent of technology and how it’s going to transform the mental health field. Though technology has done good, like my organization’s technology platform that connects people to therapists, I’m a little concerned. When I hear people talking about AI and building therapy bots, I don’t know that there’s anything that will replace the healing that happens when you are sitting in front of a person, whether it’s virtually or in real life. There is so much attention and money in the mental health space now that people want to solve these problems, but a lot of teams get involved and there is no mental health professional on board. I think it is people trying to build things for problems without understanding what leads to human suffering and what makes a difference for people. I don’t think the answer to the loneliness epidemic is a therapy bot. I don’t want that to be the thing, nor do I think it can be the thing that solves the human connection problem. It is about what other things we can do to actually allow us to connect with one another in more meaningful ways.

Jeff Dance: Interesting. How do we use technology to facilitate real connection with humans versus fake connection, essentially? That’s interesting. As we think about AI, you approached this topic. Can you think of aspects where AI could help? We know there’s a dark side. We don’t want AI to replace humans, but can you think of aspects where this will benefit the industry?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: We had a meeting with our fresh team just yesterday, looking at a chatbot that we might implement on our site, which could help people get connected to resources and therapists easier. For example, the podcast has over 400 episodes. If someone is brand new and comes to our website, where would they start? Working with a bot on our site to tell the bot what you want to know more about could easily recommend a couple of episodes for you to start listening to and get connected to resources. I think that’s a good use of technology for good.

Jeff Dance: I think your intent of, is this leading to solving the problem is important? Where it’s like, are there unintended consequences of using technology to replace human connection? We’re seeing more and more online or digital connection, but it’s the lack of human connection and social connection that’s creating a lot of issues. As we think about the future, how can technology in general foster more human connection, which is so crucial to the crisis we see today? I think it’s a good principle.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Exactly. I also think there’s so much discussion around AI that it only learns based on the humans interacting with it. So is there diversity of humans building these platforms? The diversity of thought, the diversity of leadership in terms of the people behind the scenes, marginalized groups tend to get left out because there aren’t many people from marginalized groups in the room. That’s something to think about as we think about the future of AI and mental health.

Jeff Dance: That’s great. As we think about having more equitable care, do you have thoughts on how technology can make it more equitable given the divides and issues we see today?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I think having more diversity on the teams building technology is important. But I also think, tech tends to have a lot of money, so more donations to community mental health centers would be useful. Donations from people in tech with deep pockets to the people doing the work and have been doing this work for some time would be beneficial.

Jeff Dance: That makes sense versus pretending they have the expertise just because they have technology. You mentioned that being crucial for creating something that makes a difference rather than maybe creating unintended consequences. That’s part of this podcast’s intent—to think about how we design technology with intent and do it for good. Your organization and leaders are in a great place to think about that hybrid combination where good is on the other side.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Right.

Jeff Dance: There is a lot of on-demand mental health and wellness tools, mobile apps; I’ve heard from friends, some of the impact these mobile apps have had on a spouse or relative in helping with processing issues. But there aren’t any review boards, checklists, or widely accepted rules for what to choose from a mental health app perspective or technology. What is your perspective on the technology that exists today, mobile apps that exist today, and how we balance some of that innovation with safety?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: You bring up a good point, Jeff. One of the key ways to vet an app or program is to see whether there are licensed trained clinicians on board. Is there a chief medical or mental health officer who’s actually a part of the team and integral to building the program? We’ve talked about the shortage of clinicians, and there are lots of apps and websites that are incredibly helpful. Sometimes people aren’t even ready for therapy; can they get what they need from another entity, like an app or program? It’s good to look at supplements and augments to therapy that exist. But it is essential for clinicians and medical professionals to be involved with the programming. Sometimes people have good intentions but need to know enough not to harm people. It shows terrific effort, good faith, and integrity when medical and mental health professionals are intimately involved in building these apps. I think a lot of them have done that well.

Jeff Dance: Do you have any go-to apps that are part of your suite of services that you recommend to those struggling?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Calm and Headspace are the ones that come to mind most often. My kids listen to Calm stories every night to go to bed. Those apps that remind you to breathe are good. If you’re on your phone anyway, what else could you be doing with your phone besides doom scrolling? Calm and Headspace have great offerings to help you ground yourself and breathe.

Jeff Dance: Thanks for those recommendations. Are there other thoughts on the future? Do you think things will get better or worse? Do you see other technology playing a role? Any other thoughts for the future?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: We’ve probably talked about it. I really see group and community healing as the future of mental health and looking at ways to bring people together. I feel like some of the technology beyond AI is above my pay grade. There may be something else going on that I just don’t know about. But technology will have a hand in building the future of mental health. I want to see clinicians involved in that process to do good with the technology and not further harm people.

Jeff Dance: Thank you. It seems like we know that technology has caused issues, and then we’re trying to solve some of those problems with technology as well. But it’s like, is it a cycle where we’re creating more technology, then we’re creating more technology to solve the problems? Are we stuck in the technology versus just disconnecting, you know, and saying, hey, let me go talk to people in person. Let me go talk to my neighbor. Let me go hang out with a circle of friends. Let me go out in nature. Let me go for a walk. Right. Like…

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Right, I think it’s a both and. It’s not an either-or.

Jeff Dance: When it comes to resources for those on the show who may be struggling, do you have any books you would recommend for navigating? I asked about a couple of apps, but what about books that help understand the mental health space? Your organization is a resource, but things distilled some of the issues or solutions. Anything come to mind?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: One book I enjoy is “What Happened to You.” That’s Oprah Winfrey’s book with psychiatrist, Bruce D. Perry, M.D., Ph.D.. It’s a good primer for people, helping them to understand when you’re struggling, there are often things that have happened to you. It helps normalize these struggles. Other books I typically recommend…

Jeff Dance: Or any other leaders you look to for insights?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Dr. Nadine Burke Harris, who I believe was the California Surgeon General; she wrote about ACEs, which are adverse childhood experiences, talking about the things we’ve experienced in childhood that set us up for success or struggles.

Jeff Dance: That’s great. What’s been one of the most rewarding experiences for you just being in this space and having a career centered around this?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Every time I get an email or run into someone, like in an airport or at a speaking engagement, who talks about using our therapist directory to connect with therapists in their area. I never get tired of hearing that story because, in my wildest dreams, I did not imagine creating something with the impact that the therapist directory has. That has been the most rewarding experience for me.

Jeff Dance: Any other thoughts on the future? As you think about the future and work on it as a leader in the space, anything you’re excited about seeing evolve, or any trends you think we should be aware of?

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: I’m most excited about group therapy, groups of all forms. When I learned how to do group therapy, I really felt like a light bulb went off for me. It’s probably the way I enjoy practicing therapy the most. I’m excited for others to experience groups and to make up some of the gaps we’re seeing when people look for individual clinicians by creating more therapy groups and more community-focused ways of healing.

Jeff Dance: Dr. Joy, thanks so much for being on the show with us, for your leadership and passion. It’s been great having you.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford: Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for having me.